6: On Patriarchy's Impact on Healthy Development

Join Valerie and Brannon as they talk about Valerie’s experience awakening to the impact that patriarchy has had in her own development, choices, life experiences. 

Transcript

episode-6-how-does-patriarchy-damage-healthy-development

[00:00:51] Welcome to the Latter day Struggles podcast with therapists Brandon Patrick and Valerie Hamacher. Now we have both been in the trenches for [00:01:00] years with church members and heard about all kinds of problems, suffering, and struggles that church members have. We are here to have thought provoking, honest, bold conversations about those false traditions that cause people harm.

[00:01:15] So let's go.

[00:01:19] How does patriarchy affect healthy development? All right, Valerie. Let's, let's dive right into this, I, you know, I was just saying to you before we started this episode that this topic of patriarchy is very complex and runs deep and there's a lot to it. And so we're going to just, we're going to get into it some here.

[00:01:44] And, but there's all kinds of layers to this and angles. To this. So, I'm sure that we'll talk about this again and again. So yeah. So to start, do you want to just share your story and talk about that? [00:02:00] And yeah, I would love to share this story. It, it is, it did, this just happened actually. This is an interesting situation.

[00:02:07] I was, I was in a training as a therapist with, because of COVID this was online. And so interestingly, it was with people all over the world. And. In these trainings, we kind of have to come up with scenarios that we're then going to sort of make sense of together as a, as a small group. So there's four of us in this group.

[00:02:26] Interestingly, one of them is a Catholic priest and he's also a therapist. And the question that we were addressing was have a conversation with someone that wounded you. So in the moment, in this group, we're having sort of this, It's like a, a, a portrayal, a pretend conversation. So it's a role play, a role play, a better word.

[00:02:50] That's a good Mormony word for all of us returners, we're having a role play. and so in this scenario, I'm with two women, myself. and [00:03:00] a male Catholic priest from India. And interestingly at the moment, this is not always the case, but in the moment I really wasn't having any complicated feelings about anybody in my real, you know, my real time life.

[00:03:11] But I said, you know, interestingly, you guys, I think I want to have a conversation with a gentleman who I don't know personally, but has deeply impacted my life as a woman. And he's a former prophet of my church. Okay. And so I kind of described it and I talked about the talk that President Benson gave back in the eighties where he demanded or commanded or invited, but not just invited, but strongly recommended that women stay home.

[00:03:45] Mm-Hmm. . And in this role play, I was here I am getting a little bit emotional even now. I was shocked at how angry I was. That I was [00:04:00] told that I didn't have the capacity to know for myself what was right for me as a woman. And so as we're playing this out and I'm talking it through and the, the group is working with me trying to practice their, you know, their therapist skills or whatever, the Catholic priest just about fell apart himself.

[00:04:25] started crying and said, I can't do this anymore. And I, and it was one of those moments where it was, it was, I don't think any of us knew what to do or what to expect or how it wasn't going as expected. This was supposed to be just sort of a, a benign role play. Right. Right. And He said, I can't, this hurts me too much because I am a part of this problem.

[00:04:51] I represent a patriarchal system that has hurt women for as long [00:05:00] as, you know, for forever. And you are the victim. Of this system that taught you not to trust yourself and not to do and become and develop the way you feel deeply within yourself that you are to become. Because what I went on to talk about was that for most of my growing up years and into my young adulthood years, I wouldn't let myself.

[00:05:30] Try to discern what was best for me as a woman. Valerie, I'm curious about the emotion that you're having. I want you to, to talk about the pain. Like what, what, what is this pain and sadness? Yes. That's coming up for you. It's it's a lot of, it's, it's mixed Brandon, right? Because it's, it's resentment and anger [00:06:00] that I thought I was doing the right thing to trust some outside authority figure with my own destiny.

[00:06:14] And Looking back, I realized that what was being taken from me was my own capacity to discern what was right for me. And it's complicated, right? Because On its face, I believe in the value and the divinity of motherhood. I am a, I am a mother. I love my children. And also what I had wished and what I continue to wish to this day is that there was, I wish that there was a culture in our tradition and in all Christian traditions and in all traditions that are non Christian where, where people in leadership.

[00:06:59] Can say we [00:07:00] trust you to discern for yourself what is best for you rather than telling us what is best for us. And then a believing. ignorant, maybe immature population just says, okay, I'll do what you say, even if it doesn't feel right. Right. Right. okay. I want to, I want to say a couple of things to you that, yeah, that might trigger you, but it's in the course of this discussion and conversation.

[00:07:27] First, I have a story. So somebody really close to me. and, and I'm not going to divulge who it is because, it's their story, not mine, but, they were training. It was a woman. She was training for a marathon and this was years ago and she met president Monson and this, this is when he wasn't a prophet, but he was an apostle for like his whole life.

[00:07:58] Right. So she met [00:08:00] president Monson and they got talking. just a little bit. And she said, I'm training for, I'm training for this marathon. And the comment, the comment that he made to her was, is that what a young mother should be doing? Oh, wow. Yeah. and that, that crushed her, you know, President Monson was a, he was a favorite apostle.

[00:08:25] He was very well known and, and it crushed her. And, You know, it's that same message coming from a patriarchal system that says, that says women, you are supposed to do this thing. I was just running a group last night and this, this girl was saying, I feel tons of resentment toward my husband because I'm cleaning the house all day long and I don't want to.

[00:08:54] But I know, and she said, but I know that I'm supposed to see. And I, that, that I think is the, is [00:09:00] the root of the problem is that where do we come up with these constructs that assigns, well, we know where we come up with them, right? Right. Gender roles and all the assignments that come with them is a construct.

[00:09:14] And most of the time it's, it's dictated by a long, long history of patriarchy from. I was going to say, I used to say the beginning of time, but I don't believe that to be the case anymore, because if you go way back to the beginning of the time, the, the, the, the deity was actually female until about the time of Abraham.

[00:09:32] Oh, interesting. And then it, it turned into a patriarchal system, but it's been, it's been a very long time. Right. Yeah. I think that system is a, is an important word here. Yeah. There, there are systems that keep us stuck in these places. So like if, if, if I were to say, well, isn't a mother staying at home?

[00:09:53] And is, isn't that what keeps the family system together? Isn't that how it's supposed to work? And in my mind, [00:10:00] the way I was raised, it was like, yeah. Mom stays at home and nurtures everybody and makes hot breakfast, right? Like that's, that's a mom does. And dad goes off to work and he does his thing. And, and if that's how it's set up, then the family's going to thrive and the kids are going to be happy.

[00:10:15] And everybody's going to go on a mission and get married in the temple. Right. And it's so simple and black and white. And except for the fact that in, in execution in life, it's not black and white. Right. Nothing is black and white. And I think that the core of what you and I, or that I, I guess I just feel so strongly about is that can that be a model that works for, for families?

[00:10:40] The answer to that question is yes. But it has to be chosen and it has to be discerned between the couple themselves as individuals and not dictated or governed from something outside. Ooh, yes. But is that, is that not being [00:11:00] righteous, right? Is that being prideful to say, nope, we're going to do it our way.

[00:11:05] And although The prophet president Benson or president Monson or whoever it is, is saying that it should be this way. That doesn't work for us. and you know, I'm tongue in cheek saying this, right? Yeah. because I think this is the, the, the struggle and the wrestle here is when the systems say one thing, but your heart says another, are you willing to actually connect to that heart, connect to God's.

[00:11:34] Directly. And we talk about this a lot. Yes. To say, well, I'm not going to just go along with the system here because that's not acting in truth for me. And I think that's what we're trying to help people cultivate in, in our private practices, in our, in our family lives. And in this podcast, which is, The, the, the institution, any institution is a first, first [00:12:00] half of life kind of organization, which is there to set up parameters.

[00:12:05] Right. Right. In, in lower levels of our, of our spiritual development, it is all about good, bad, right, wrong. Yes. Black and white. Right. And, and yet the further along we go, the more we can be able to determine and discern for ourselves how that actually applies to us and, and to live outside of the validation of the larger system to, and then this is the thing that's interesting, Brandon, is that.

[00:12:36] it's, it's, it's immature both to follow blindly and it's equally immature to rebel against the system for its own sake. Those are two equally immature positions on either side of the pendulum. Yes. Oh, we could, we could talk about that for forever because I think that right there is the [00:13:00] crux of the very reason why we do this podcast.

[00:13:04] and, but I want to back up just a little bit. And I want to, I want to, this will be fun to lob this question up to you, Valerie. So, you know, just, just, I just want the audience to, you know, who Valerie is, but to understand Valerie raised in the church, member of the church, but also a powerful, empowered woman and therapist who has her own business, who does all kinds of things.

[00:13:30] And is way more than, than, than just staying at home. Right? And not to say that that's bad if you're just staying at home. But here's my question is, is it not a woman's highest calling to be a mother and a wife? Is, shouldn't that be her purpose first and foremost? Oh, you're so funny. So, so I w I would say the answer to that is actually, [00:14:00] it depends.

[00:14:01] Okay. I think it is a, a, a beautiful thing to do and be, and I am one. And yet I believe that I'm going to roll back the question and say, independent of gender, the highest calling that each of us have in this life, Brandon is to become ourselves. Yeah. And I don't, I, I, I distanced myself from the idea that my highest calling has anything to do with my gender.

[00:14:30] Some of the things that I will do because of, because of my gender being, because of my femaleness, the fact that I can, you know, that my body and your body does not make bait. You, you can't make a baby. Right. Right. Mine can. But there are a lot of gender roles. that are constructs of our society, which is different, different, which is different than the differences between a man and a woman, a body, what the male body can and cannot do and what the female body can and [00:15:00] cannot do.

[00:15:00] So do I believe that the fact that my body has been able to create four beautiful human beings that move about the world, that is a big deal to me. That's a miracle. That's amazing. Miracle. Yes. And I'm very, very grateful for that opportunity that I have. And. I also feel profoundly committed to showing these children, both male and female, that their mom is here to do something remarkable in this world that has actually nothing to do with them.

[00:15:28] I am here to become me. I'm here to do the things unique to my purpose in this life. And I, it's my job as a, as a human being, and it's your job as a human to figure out what that thing is. Yes. And part of it has to do with, you know, the creation of a family. And I'm, I'm, I'm a big fan of that and other parts of it have to do with the work that I'm doing elsewhere in the world.

[00:15:56] And it's, it's pretty remarkable, interestingly, that my [00:16:00] own daughters. Are incredibly proud of their mom for things that have nothing to do with what I do directly as a mom. I'm a role model to them of courage and power and kind of being a bad ass out there and saying what I mean and that them is, is impacting them in a way that I'm not convinced that like making jam and, you know, sewing things could do.

[00:16:26] Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. My, my grandma made great jam and she was great at sewing and I'm grateful for that and that's wonderful. Yes, and I'm so great. Yes. I'm so grateful for that. But here's the thing, like you just said it, you, you doing what you do and stepping into your purpose and, and really fighting for truth and being a change agent.

[00:16:52] That is good mothering. That, that is, that is good mothering because you're being, you're, you're aligned in your [00:17:00] integrity and in your purpose with God. So you're setting a great example as, as a parent to your children. you know, my mom, we were, we were really poor growing up. And when I was like, Maybe 11 or 12.

[00:17:16] My mom went back to school, got her master's degree and became a school counselor and, and then thrived as a school counselor for years. And she brought an income in, she helped a lot of kids. She worked at the same junior high almost the whole time. And I'd come home from school some days and there wasn't, dinner wasn't made.

[00:17:40] My mom wasn't there. I mean, was I like a latch key kid? I wasn't that bad, but, but the truth is, is mom, mom wasn't there nurturing me. And, but you know what she was doing when I was a 12 year old, she set an example of grit. She set an example of, of, [00:18:00] Of really figuring out what her purpose was and what she loved.

[00:18:03] She knew she loved kids and she loved helping people. And I wouldn't do what I do today had my mom not set that example for me. And I'm actually so grateful. So, so grateful that my mom was strong enough to go to work. Yes. Right. And, and this goes against what were, what these systems and these constructs tell us.

[00:18:27] Yes. And, and I imagine there were times when she had. immense amounts of guilt going on inside of her knowing that I'm getting home and And she's not there and and my fourth siblings same thing I'm sure she felt guilt because I know in the back of her mind. She's thinking I should be a homemaker It's all that I should be but that's not my mom.

[00:18:50] My mom isn't stay at home and bake bread all day That's, I mean, she does, she is a good cook, but that's not my mom, right? And so my [00:19:00] mom stepping into her purpose was great mothering. And I just want to ask you, Valerie, why do you think, like what's behind it? Why did President Benson say what he said?

[00:19:13] Why do the patriarchal systems still exist? Like, where does this come from? Well, I mean, my understanding of, I've done some reading on, on sort of, if you, if you look at president Benson from a historical perspective, he was As we all know, he was, he was very deeply involved in, in conservative politics.

[00:19:37] And so I think that played into it. There was a lot of conservative ideology going on in, in his, in a lot of his work that, that didn't just touch into this particular topic. And I also think there was a little bit of a, I think historically there's always going to be a, a swinging back and forth. And I think we're also, if you think about, [00:20:00] Historically, we're responding to, or at least of the church is responding to sort of the, what, what they considered that you sort of the, the, the slingshot from the sixties and the seventies.

[00:20:13] Okay. Right. And so you have a lot of this free love and a lot of this sort of, the, the breaking out. Of what was going on traditional family or the traditional forties and fifties. And so if you see the forties and fifties that way, and then you move into the sixties and seventies, and then the eighties is more about and I also understand that the eighties is, the correlation period of the church where church correlation really came into play, which was the heavy hand of patriarchy in the church.

[00:20:46] Where women lost any power that they'd ever had was pretty much gone due to church correlation. And that's where the Relief Society lost most of their autonomy, right? And that's where [00:21:00] we, the belief then being also because of the fears that the church had around sort of the changes that were happening, happening culturally with around the sexual revolution is that the idea.

[00:21:10] And I'm, I'm very much oversimplifying this, but the idea was if we can keep everybody in their gender roles, then we can keep a lid on all of the craziness that's going on around us in the world regarding what's going on with the sexual revolution. So the more we keep a woman doing things that, you know, in hand quotes, women should be doing.

[00:21:32] the more we can not be impacted by what the rest of the world is doing regarding the sexual revolution and, equal rights amendments and things like that, that are all emerging in the late seventies and in the eighties. And so it's, it's a little bit of a response to a larger cultural situation that is really putting, you know, so it's, it's an active [00:22:00] way to sort of keep our thumb on the behaviors of men and women.

[00:22:06] Women do these things, stay in the home, behave this way. And then you are more like women and you behave more like women. You do more womanly things. And then men do the. manly things. And I'm not saying these are, this is the, these are constructs in my mind, but this is what the church I think is going, this is kind of, if I were to kind of put my brain inside of what was going on.

[00:22:29] And so what they're, what they're doing is basically assigning roles and responsibilities to each gender to keep control. Yeah. I mean, what you just said that the magic word of the end, like this sounds a lot like fear and control. Yes. And whenever I hear fear and control, what I think is the, the adversary.

[00:22:47] Yes. not God. So, and it's interesting, fear and control, because we're afraid of what? And, I actually think that the immature [00:23:00] masculine is terrified of the feminine. Oh, 100%. Right? And so, or, or, and when I say the immature masculine, I'm talking about, Patriarchal systems that practice unrighteous dominion.

[00:23:13] that that's immature masculinity That that says we're the most important we will stuff you down because we're scared of your femininity. Yikes What could happen? um and And I think it's important to understand that the masculine loves the feminine and the feminine loves the masculine and a healthy, healthy masculinity will absolutely encourage femininity to thrive and vice versa.

[00:23:43] Right? Yeah. Well, I would, I would actually go so far, Brandon, as to say that in the, in the healthiest version of ourselves as human beings, we're, we're actually rather androgynous. there is a healthy feminine in you Absolutely. Cultivation. And there's a [00:24:00] healthy masculine in me that deserves cultivation.

[00:24:03] I think what happened is that women in the last 50 years have been taking upon themselves. This the church is always a generation or two behind, but at large women have been becoming, have they've been, they've been empowering themselves. Yes. They've been saying, I, this isn't right. I deserve the vote. I deserve this.

[00:24:25] I deserve and rightfully so. And I think that's the, that's the woman taking upon characteristics that are more empowering and empowered that have traditionally been assigned to men. I don't think they're owned by masculinity. They've just been assigned as masculine qualities. Whereas men. Feel threatened by that because they take, oh, they think again, it's all construct.

[00:24:47] Yes. I think they own that and they are having struggles with handing over. This, what they have co opted is their stuff. Right, right. And so if we can, if we [00:25:00] can keep women, you know, in the home, feeling a ton of, a ton of guilt. Yeah. About wanting to kind of break free and wanting to have a voice. And one, if we can keep them there, then we can keep these systems in place because we're threatened by, by that.

[00:25:17] And I, you know, I talk about this with my couples a lot when I'm, when I'm working on the micro level with a husband and a wife where the woman is. Pushing back. Right. And saying, you know, I, I did buy into this. I colluded in the problem and I'm not okay with it anymore. Right. Right. I'm very interested to see in situations of this nature, what the gentleman is going to do, because that to me shows the nature of his own development.

[00:25:43] If the husband is able to say, You're absolutely right. Spread those beautiful wings and go do something amazing. And I am going to support you. That to me shows that this man has an ego structure that is not based on his needing to be strong. And [00:26:00] well, how do I say this? Sometimes Men's strength is based on their needing to Lord over their wife.

[00:26:07] Right. And so if a man is threatened, then I'm like, okay, well, your ego structure is based on needing to be one up from this woman. But if, if you are excited for her growth and development, then that shows that you don't need her to be small for you to be okay. Exactly. And I think we could just expand that out To the larger, you know, to the church is if the church needs men to be in charge for them to be okay.

[00:26:38] Like they need to be one up and in being one up, they need to have someone to be one up from that shows an underdeveloped system or religious system. For all of us to be okay, for all of us to be on the same level and everybody to still be okay, what actually show would be a demonstration of the psychological development of the institution.

[00:26:58] Yes. It's, it's so [00:27:00] interesting, Valerie. It's it's, it's so immature to think. It's Men versus women, or, you know, if it's not, that's not how God works. It's you, it's both that actually, that's powerful. And, and so I just, I, I want women to. To have more of a voice in the, like we need women. We need that not, not just women.

[00:27:29] We need femininity. We need that divine feminine, more present, in, in the, in the truth. And so I guess, what am I trying to say, Valerie? it's uncomfortable. I think it's uncomfortable. I remember when I first got married 17 years ago, I asked my wife to pray and she was like, No, I don't feel like it tonight.

[00:27:54] And I had this feeling of I just asked you to pray. You're supposed to pray. And [00:28:00] I'm the leader of this. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit when I said that. Look how far you've come. The fact that you actually, I love that you're admitting this. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. But, but you know, it's uncomfortable when systems have been in place for so long.

[00:28:13] Yeah. They're just automatic and we're used to them. And. It's wrong. And, and, and, yeah. And so it's uncomfortable to shift to say, it's okay. yes, let's, let's have more, of a voice from, from women in church. Absolutely. In fact, we would feel God more if we had that. So. Well, I think it begins. I can't help it.

[00:28:37] I got to say one more thing. If you, because this really, this, this I'm back to, I'm putting my marriage counselor hat back on because I'm noticing something Brandon that's coming up for me. And this I think is related to the culture that we have cultivated in the church, but it plays very heavily into the home and in [00:29:00] the marriage.

[00:29:01] So just hang in there with me on this. I have a theory and that's, I notice in marriage counseling that it's not uncommon for there to be a dynamic in the marriage where the guy is the nice guy and he and he gets railroaded by a woman who is powerful in the home. She's powerless in many ways. She's not a care.

[00:29:29] She's not a provider. She has allowed herself to take on the role as the one down in, you know, she didn't serve a mission. She didn't have as much education. She let herself and her goals go in the service of the larger goal of the husband's development, because that's kind of how we've been socialized.

[00:29:49] And there's a, there's a resentment there. That. Is sort of an energy. It's it's a very subtle energy, but it's there and I see it [00:30:00] frequently and I see the husband not standing up to it and I see the husband not having a voice and I have a theory because I've seen this so many times that I worry that There is some guilt that the husband experiences knowing that he is part of a patriarchal system that has oppressed an entire gender, the entire population of women.

[00:30:26] Yes. And so he lets himself be browbeaten by this woman and the woman is angry. Because she represents the oppressed culture at large, and they don't even realize as a couple that this is playing out that he's actually taking upon himself the sins of this larger culture that is oppressed women and that oppresses them in the church and oppresses them in the world.

[00:30:49] Right. And it plays out in marriages that then suffer deeply because they don't have a name to describe what's going on that both parties have, have heaped upon their [00:31:00] shoulders in this way that's almost invisible. Yep. They're automatically under those systems and they don't even realize it. Exactly. Am I making sense here?

[00:31:08] I think so. You're making sense to me. Yeah. because the reality is, is truth. Hopefully will prevail. Yeah, and and so that guy that's feeling guilt that guilt is there for a reason Yeah, because they're they're not in their marriage. They're not living in truth. And yeah, Valerie I just want to I just want to make sure that We clarify like we're not we're not saying that every woman needs to go out and get a job Like we're saying so much more than that, right?

[00:31:38] It's deeper than that, right? Yeah. Step in be willing to have the courage to step into your God given purpose as, as a woman and, and, and we as a, as a church and as a people need that. So, and if your God given purpose is making the best jam ever and make the jam, give it, give it to your neighbors [00:32:00] and hallelujah.

[00:32:01] Yes. Yes. That's awesome. Do it because it's, it's right. And it feels good, right, true and beautiful to you and what you're here to do. You're in alignment with God. Exactly. Right. And be very careful. I think we all need to be very careful to, to acknowledge what is the, what are the patterns. How have we been patterned to discern what is good, right, and true for us?

[00:32:25] Right. And does it come from within or does it come from somewhere out there? Yes. Yes. What is the truth and where does it come from? And you'll know, and this is what's really cool is you might be thinking, I make jam all day. And I, you know, massage my husband's shoulders when he gets home from work. And I do this and I do all these things and, and I give him sex whenever he wants and I could go on and on.

[00:32:49] Right. Right. All the, all the things. And you might be thinking I'm doing all the right things, all the right things that these systems have told me to do. My husband makes plenty of money so I can stay home. So [00:33:00] this is. And I'm resentful toward my husband. I'm resentful toward God. I'm resentful. So that resentment is actually saying something to you about who you actually are.

[00:33:12] So listen to that resentment rather than think that that resentment is unrighteous and bad and you should, don't should yourself back into the system. Listen to that resentment so that you can find peace, so that you can go, go live your God given purpose, because we need you to go live your God given purpose.

[00:33:32] Exactly, and I think resentment is actually the data that we need to take action ourselves. Yeah, it's not, it's not my husband's problem. If I resentful, it's my problem that I need to listen to that, figure out what it is I'm resentful about and then go do something differently, become the agent of my own life maybe for the first time.

[00:33:55] But it's so complicated, Valerie, to listen to that because we're told that that's [00:34:00] selfish. That's wrong. You shouldn't, right? And, and to give yourself permission to say, no, like I'm suffering and I'm hurting and this isn't okay for me. So I need to challenge these systems that I'm under and, and actually see them and be willing to, to step through the fear that I might be doing something wrong or whatever in order to, to, to live my purpose.

[00:34:24] And I think, I think to do that. I mean, I think what I would, I'm just imagining in my mind's eye, what people, how are people maybe responding? well, it's just not that easy. Right. And I'm going to go ahead and validate that and say, you're absolutely right. And so there may need to be adaptations. You may need to have collaborate with people that can help you do whatever that thing is that you need to do.

[00:34:44] If you have a house full of littles, you see what I'm saying? I mean, what, what you and I are trying to speak into is number one. Embrace the fact that life is not simple. It's complex and that's okay. We're on schedule when we're trying to grapple with complexities in a [00:35:00] way that is accommodating what we are here to become as human beings and also have being mindful of the needs of other people, right?

[00:35:08] But we're not supposed to sacrifice an entire gender to the needs of the next generation. Right. It's not right. We can figure out a way to meet the needs and to develop this whole entire gender that has been oppressed, you know, forever for a long time. And also not, and also be mindful of, of the needs of the next generation.

[00:35:29] It does not need to be an either or phenomenon. It is not that simple. Yep. Amen. Yeah. Well, Valerie, we're just scratching the surface like I said earlier. So this was a great conversation. I think it's a good starting point. Yeah. if, if it, brought up any emotions for you or really gets you thinking or you're thinking about somebody who could really use this, then don't be, don't be scared to share it.

[00:35:53] And we actually love your, your ratings and reviews as well. So please go leave us a review and have a great day. We'll [00:36:00] see you guys.